Evangelical School From Documentary Jesus Camp Shuts Down

Jesus Camp DEFINITELY pushes a strong point of view- of only because it's marketing strategy generalizes from the one group portrayed in the film to say that groups of Evang. youth are poised to take over the country.

Have you seen this documentary film? Seeing Red: A Journey Through the Moral Divide. http://www.seeingredthemovie.com It's a lot more honest and true to the topic.

It's not availble in theatres yet, but it's traveling the festival circuit and is available online: http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/news/blog-061030.html for individual and house party screenings.

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I've seen the movie and can attest to the fact that it does have a personal spin coming from the filmmakers. But this spin isn't exactly about the kids or Evangelical Christians. It was more about politics and how this group of voters have such a strong say in today's government. The children were portrayed as soldiers in this political war zone who were being prepped for battle to support president Bush and pray for certain bills to pass, things that the kids would barely have a clue about. Not putting in narration into a documentary does NOT make it unbiased, that is such a cop out. Hello.... editing? framing? These are all artistic choices that creates a personal statement of cinema, the filmmaker's statement.

Also the whole point of being in a religion is to believe that it is the sole religion above all others the statement "religious intolerance" as applied to Evangelical Christianity is a moot point.

The thoughts of the camp director and its adherents were contrasted with some radio personality and his personal take on the whole Jesus camp film. The portrayal of dramatic and perhaps disturbing scenes of children speaking in "tongues" and falling down placed next to the calm and reasoned voice of this radio guy. Who are you going to choose?

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Is the film biased, yes. It's hard for it not to be. But as Mr. Kang before me, I don't think it was biased against the religion so much as mixing religion and politics. But I also felt a very strong sense of hypocrisy coming from the Air America radio host who's supposed to provide the other side's perspective. What I found fascinating was seeing him say the same thing as the Evangelical Christians. Both sides say that what the other teaches in school is wrong. There is no chance for debate here. The other is just wrong. This is where I think the film is most evenhanded.

Do I think the film had to do with the camp being shut down? Depends. Did Supersize Me help to get rid of the Supersize portions at McDonalds?

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In church camps across this country over the past 50 years or more children have been taught Godly principals the Left of our society has tried to ban if not discredit these institutions this film is just another example of how the Left have demonized Godly principles and have substituted humanistic philosphy in its place and now accross America we are reaping what we have sowen" more then we sow later than we sow"(Dr.Charles Stanley) unless this country returns to Godly principles in all of its dealings with other countries and people in this world, we will go the way of the Roman Empire.

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There sure is a lot of "Christian bashing" in these comments. I haven't seen the film, so no comment is intended about it. However, no matter which denomination is represented, someone wants to bash it. Let's remember something here, go back about 50 years when you could still pray in school, and tell me how many kids were shot up? When we had Bibles and the Ten Commandments in our schools and courtrooms, we didn't have guns. Because our nation has departed so far from what it was founded on in the name of personal "freedom", we have enslaved ourselves to corruption and violence. Are we freer? I'm certainly not. I can no longer safely take a nap along the road during a trip, or leave my doors unlocked at home, or let my kids play in the neighborhood without fearing them getting kidnapped or shot. Crime constanly increases, not decreases. More laws aren't stopping it, either. Instead our nation is being guided toward being an athiest state like Russia was and China and others are. Just look in the eyes of those people (I have). They have no hope. Christians do. Many come to America to have a better life, only to be met with things becoming like it was where they left. Welcome home, Comrade. Ask them what life is like in a country without God, they'll all tell you the same thing. Not good. AND YOU WANT A COUNTRY WITHOUT GOD? I have an idea...let the people who want God out of their life and country LEAVE, and let's return America to it's Christan roots it was founded on, and everybody will be happy, NOT TO MENTION SAFER!

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Many of the comments so far appear to be one-sided, so please allow me to offer a different perspective.

I too have seen the documentary and it was obvious that the approach was open-minded and fair. The filmmakers approached the topic with a desire to learn and let the camera paint the picture. What I saw was an accurate unbiased observation and portrayal of the doctrines and practices of the Camp. Indeed, the filmmakers indicated that they did not use “material from his sermons that were more inflammatory in nature and could perhaps be interpreted as divisive.” These safeguards point to mindfulness and a nature of fairness.

Why did the documentary provoke such a controversy?

It is the means used to enforce their beliefs, not what they said that sparked the controversy. Absolute authority, domination, coercion, and isolation practiced by an infallible leadership, as viewed in this film, are just a few of the items on the Bonewits’ Cult Danger Evaluation. (To learn more please visit: http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html )

There is controversy because those people whom this camp ostensibly served felt betrayed. I understand that, according to Pentecostals, a child does not have sufficient knowledge to make the choice to “be saved,” hence the rejection of infant baptism. This film showed a betrayal of the Pentecostalist’s core belief of adult free will in accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. Children speaking in tongues can be odious to the Pentecostalist’s because of this belief.

The Pentecostalist’s would also find the idolatry shown in respect to the cardboard cutout of George W. Bush offensive. This false gospel or leading the innocent sheep and faithful astray is particularly offensive to any Church. One could almost hear them say, "Just as the Lamb of God was sacrificed on the altar to shed his blood for our salvation, these innocent lambs are sacrificed on the altar of idolatry to bring their souls to eternal damnation!"

So here, we have a striking portrait of Evangelicals that generated strong controversy from the very people that should have found an accurate portrayal of this camp acceptable. The people who should have been sympathetic to such a group were the ones most offended.

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I love how the guy at comment #5 whined about "Christian bashing" in the first four comments when there wasn't any. Hey, beem, isn't "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor" one of the commandments you claim to keep? Or does it not count in this case, since online folk aren't your physical next-door neighbors?

Meanwhile, back in the reality-based community: We find that the film's de facto star Ted Haggard, who boasted of his access to George W. Bush and who many knowledgeable observers see as being more powerful that James Dobson, has now been accused of seeking out a different sort of access, namely with a gay male prostitute. If the evidence checks out, I don't think that Pastor Becky Fischer's school will ever reopen -- the splashover from the Haggard scandal will cover her irreversibly.

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I have not seen the film, but I have read a lot about it. My fear is that people will assume this is a picture of all 'evangelical' Christians and it is not. There are no Christians that I know who subscribe to the beliefs and tactics the film seems to have portrayed.

The fact that this camp is compared to the Islamic camps that indoctrine children into violence is also disturbing.

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I have not seen the film, but I have read a lot about it. My fear is that people will assume this is a picture of all 'evangelical' Christians and it is not. There are no Christians that I know who subscribe to the beliefs and tactics the film seems to have portrayed.

The fact that this camp is compared to the Islamic camps that indoctrine children into violence is also disturbing.

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In response to beemerup, I must say that the comment about America being founded on Christian roots is patently wrong and I cannot believe the McCarthyism espoused in the post. This is the 21st Century; we are no longer “burning witches.” Your ill-informed talk about crime, schools and freedoms prompted my response below.

Without Question, The Unites States of America began as a secular nation: A Nation that gives everyone the freedom of mind and reason. The Puritans came to America seeking religious freedom not religious domination. They believed in religious toleration and freedom of thought. Religious, political, economic, and ethnic diversity defined the character of the colonies.

Although many of the colonies were deeply religious, the driving forces that eventually became the foundations of our Nation were largely secular. As we began to severe our ties to the British Empire, our Nations founders and all of the citizens knew first-hand the problems of State mandated religion and lobbied hard to avoid repeating such a wrong.

In 1776, the Colonies were a part of England, if the citizens were not members of the Church of England (Anglican) they did not have any civic rights. They could not vote for members of Parliament, were denied social benefits, many forms public education and could not attend an English University.

A cursory review of American history shows a Nation that is progressive and forward-looking: One that does not demand the abandonment or acceptance of beliefs. Our Nation is open to all kinds of life-styles, beliefs, cultures, and ideologies. All it asks is allegiance to the principles that made this Nation. It is evident in the Founding Documents that the Framers intended to palliate extreme beliefs, specifically religious beliefs, which, even today, lead to civil strife. We cannot return to second century modes of thinking.

As citizens of the United States of America, we must educate ourselves in, and hold dear, the founding principles of our Country and it's doctrine of rights. (The Constitution of the United States of America and the Bill of Rights) Only this will ensure the health of our Nation.

Those attending the Constitutional Convention knew the problems associated with a State religion. The religious diversity of this nation at the time required a secular Constitution. The Fundamentalists understood this in the 18th century, and it boggles the mind that many cannot grasp the concept in the 21st. ("I have sworn . . . eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson)

Madison warns, "If a majority be united by a common interest, the rights of the minority will be insecure... The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, self-appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny."

"...the framers of the American Constitution rose to the occasion. They designed a national government that, for the first time in Western history, had no established religion at all. The Articles of Confederation, which were drawn up during the Revolutionary War, had been silent on religion -- itself something of an innovation. But the Constitution went further by prohibiting any religious test for holding office. And the first words of the First Amendment stated that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." If the people were to be sovereign, and belonged to different religions, the state religion would be no religion at all. Otherwise, the reasoning went, too many religious denominations would be in competition to make theirs the official choice, and none could prevail without coercing dissenters to support a church other than their own -- a violation of the liberty of conscience that Americans had come to believe was a God-given right. Establishment of religion at the national level was prohibited. Religious diversity had ensured it." The New York Times, July 3, 2005; A Church-State Solution, By Noah Feldman

The character of our Founding Fathers is evident from their own, voluminous, writings and official State papers; no pulpit can rewrite history to force its folly upon others. The Founding Fathers respected the rights of Fundamentalists but mostly held to Deism and Freemasonry tenets rather than to Christianity. In fact, many of the Founders held contempt for Christianity. Therefore, religious tolerance became an essential and indeed basic element of our Nation’s history.

Thomas Jefferson said, "I have examined all the known superstitions of the word... They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

Perhaps these sentiments "...are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour; a long habit of not thinking a thing WRONG, gives it a superficial appearance of being RIGHT, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom." Thomas Paine

"It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people." Giordano Bruno

"There is no such source and cause of strife, quarrel, fights, malignant opposition, persecution, and war and ALL EVIL in the state, as religion. Let it once enter into our civil affairs, our government would soon be DESTROYED. Let it once enter our common schools, they would be DESTROYED.... Those who made our Constitution saw this, and used THE MOST APT AND COMPREHENSIVE LANGUAGE in it to prevent such a catastrophe." The Supreme Court of Wisconsin; Weiss vs. the District Board, March 18, 1890. (Emphasis mine)

If the Fundamentalists, no matter what their creed, would better understand the Separation of Church and State, they would quickly understand that this fundamental concept protects their religion. The Framers knew what they were doing. Only a Secular Government allows the free expression of belief, or non-belief. The Judeo/Christian sects (Including Islam) should be leading the charge in the battle of Church/State separation based upon their strong moral stance. The Fundamentalists are inciting emotional upheaval and civil (and social) unrest to get their particular doctrine writ large in American Law.

The only way to protect the moral ecology of our Nation is through the definitive neutrality of Government when it comes to matters of religion. Without this neutrality, our enumerated rights begin to lose their meaning; filtered through the most-popular/least-read (or at a minimum least understood) novel. The Fundamentalists scream for the Government to "uphold" their rights through the denial of the rights of others.

Our moral capital will improve without the group-distortions and delusions of the Fundamentalists. Nevertheless, they cannot see the truth of the matter. Instead, through their lack of understanding of our most prized Constitution, they feel comfortable pushing the U.S. further into the deep moral crisis of bigotry and intolerance.

On a side note: Reversing personal autonomy inherent in the Constitution and Bill of Rights for a more ecclesiocratic rule is the antithesis of the term American. Despite the apoplectic throws of the fundamentalists, the Church is constantly changing to keep up with evolving culture and science.
“Religion has been compelled by science to give up one after another of its dogmas, of those assumed cognitions which it could not substantiate...” -- Herbert Spencer, First Principles, 1862

The assertion that a particular religious belief has a positive effect on crime rates is simply and utterly nonsense. (It would be easier to believe the opposite) In fact, the levels of crime are related to several and diverse exogenous sources such as socio-economic factors including poverty and lack of education and other community-level and personal variables, rather than religion, and this varies across the nation.

In the 1950’s there were hundreds of Gangs in New York, (500), and over 1300 gangs in Chicago. Gangs and violent crimes all over America were of national concern. This is not to say, however, that this is a particularly American problem. Germany, England and other countries were worried about and attempting to deal with the same teenage/young adult conduct. The crime rates today are about at the same level as they were in the 1920’s, when the majority of the Nation was much more religious than they are today.

Moreover, there was the decline of crime in the 90’s concurrent with a decline in religiosity. It must be said, however, that crime rates in the Bible Belt are not different from those in other areas of our Nation (The UnChurched Belt). In fact, Alabama, Texas, South Carolina, Florida, Louisiana, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Missouri, Kansas, North Carolina, and Georgia, to name a few, are all in the top-20 list for crime rates. Additionally, the Bible Belt states lead the nation in Divorce, and Bible Belt States are more likely to execute the Mentally ill.

How can anyone suggest that a Christian nation would be safer? The American Christian Terrorists have carried out bombings, killings, stalking, blockades, assaults, and arson in your lifetime and the majority of prison inmates refer to themselves as religious (mostly Christian). (This is the short list; statistics are available online.)

To support our free and deliberative democracy, our Nation, by necessity, must be secular not sectarian. This is not to suggest the eradication of Religion, quite the contrary. It implies that our Free Nation must embrace its diversity and multiculturalism.

The Fundamentalist factions of the Christian Right are doing more to tear this country apart than any other group. I strongly recommend that the leaders of these factions research the history of the United States before jumping on the stump. We all know that it is a common practice for many to accept from the pulpit, without question, proclamations regarding the history of the United States of America. (Among other falsities) Yes, the majority of this Nation is clearly "...stampeded by stump orators" (Sumner) either through the lack of critical thinking skills or just plain laziness. However, the pulpit pays no attention to natural rights or the actual history of our Nation. History itself, not swayed by such ranting, is clear and well documented.

Posts like beemerup propagate lies and spread the disease. Christian roots – My Arse~!

Jesus spoke of Love and not hatred.

Now, the “Christian Bashing,” if any, in the posts above is tame by any standards. This leads me to believe that beemerup will take offense at any critical comments.

Remember the Baptists opposed a State established religion until recently. The Baptists were persecuted because they did not conform to the Church of England and in the 18th century were concerned that if the State established a religion that the Congregationalists would “win out.”

Let us keep our Government out of the business of Religion. This is the strongest guarantee of freedom for religious people.

Thank you for reading my harangue.
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Resources:

The 2006 Statistical Abstract: The National Data Book;
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/law_enforcement_courts_prisons/crimes_and_crime_rates/

Bible Belt states more likely to execute the mentally retarded:
www.baptiststandard.com/2001/8_6/print/executions.html

Bible Belt Leads U.S. In Divorces | Daily Policy Digest | NCPA: http://www.ncpa.org/pd/social/pd111999g.html

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I think the long rant by the professor was interesting, but wrong. Our nation, thank God, was founded by Christians not secular humanist.

God bless America...God, Country, Cannabis...oohra!

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Kevin Frad, you left out a few quotes.

Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817]

"We recognize no sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus."--John Adams and John Hancock (April 18, 1775)

"The general principles upon which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity..I will avow that I believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God"
(July 4th) ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty"--John Adams

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.--John Adams (October 11, 1798)

"He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all..Our forefathers opened the Bible to all."--Samuel Adams

"Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity..and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system."--Samuel Adams

"Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--John Quincy Adams 1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts

“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61

“Be religiously careful in our choice of all public officers . . . and judge of the tree by its fruits.”--Elias Boudinot

" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." Charles Carroll (signer of the Declaration of Independence)[Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” Benjamin Franklin –Constitutional Convention of 1787

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?”--Benjamin Franklin [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." Alexander Hamilton[1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."--Alexander Hamilton

“In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations."--John Hancock A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.”--Patrick Henry [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”--John Jay Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.

“Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson.” --John Jay [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]

“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”--Thomas Jefferson

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."--Thomas Jefferson

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.”--Thomas Jefferson (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”--James Madison

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.”--James Madison [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia

"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."--Jebediah Morse

“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” Noah Webster[Noah Webster. History. p. 339]

“The Bible was America’s basic textbook
in all fields.” Noah Webster [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

“Education is useless without the Bible” Noah Webster[Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”--George Washington

You should also consider the fact that the very missused concept of separation of church and state was to allow freedom FOR religion, not freedom FROM it. Face it, the USA was founded on Godly and Christian principles. How sad that the liberal left want to rewrite history for their benefit. The USA is a Judeo-Christian nation. In places like Russia, if you're seen with a Bible, people beg to read it. In China, many risk their lives to hang on to a mere page from the Bible. Here in America, people and Nazi organizations like the ACLU and People for the American Way want to erase God from our history, and indeed our nation. If that happens, I'm moving to a safer place.

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I viewed the trailer for this movie. As someone raised in the AOG church...I can attest to it's authenticity. It is nothing less than brainwashing and abuse through emotional control and fear. I an sickened when memories are revisited watching these children being continually subjected to the propaganda of the Pentecostal Movement. Thankfully, I am "deprogramming" and have had my eyes opened to God's LOVE not intimidation and fear as taught to these children.
I literally have tears watching just the trailer portion and see this brainswashing as similar to the techniques used by Hitler and his henchmen. I feel criminal charges of child abuse and neglect should be brought upon the directors, employees, and anyone associated with this "camp" as well as the parents.
God, help this nation if THIS is to be our future!!

Cyndi Williams, Lover of God
EX-PENTECOSTAL

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All I remember from Bible classes were 'turn the other cheek', 'love',compassion and that Jesus was not about war.
To condemn terrorists and their acts of violence and then to encourage children to become 'christian soldiers' is beyond belief.
Wake up America, before you become more akin to the Middle East nations.
The pastor in this documentary is loco!!

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