Discuss: Are Heroes (Super and Otherwise) Truly Gone?

I prefer the "Heroes" brand of Heroes at this point, because I feel like any superhero that started in a comic book from 1950 is so whored out by now that it couldn't possibly be made into a successful movie (Well, without using a Black Sabbath song in it). Heroes hasn't yet been fully prostituted yet, and then I can imagine that there are other "Superheroes" being thought up by creative comic book artists as we speak. I don't think they are as dead yet as the modern comic book is. They're just going to have to innovate, and find new superpowers we haven't already heard of or thought about.

Reply

http://davidharsanyi.com/blog/2008/03/02/are-heroes-super-and-otherwise-truly-gone/

Reply

Aren't all heroes haunted by their past and inner demons? Many times isn't that why they put on the cape in the first place?

Reply

Some heroes have never had inner demons: Superman, Captain Marvel, to name a couple. No haunted-by-their-past there. A little pain and regret in Supe's case, because of the tragedy of Krypton. But they're the Boy Scouts, which is why they're hard to translate nowadays, Chris Reeve notwithstanding. And you can't mess too much with Superman as an archtype.

The Fantastic Four. Yeah, the Thing's pissed, but overall they're a good Republican family unit from Cleaverland. Attempts to contrive otherwise have always seemed to dirty up the archetype that attracted people in the first place.

My problem is just like Elisabeth's -- Harsanyi fails to define what's missing. Does he want superheroes who are impervious to the mortal problems of the world around them? So vaunted and heroic, their stories lack human dimensions? Nobody buys those kinds of stories, not for many years. Marvel's new kids line dispenses with the darkness and complications of the 'mainstream' books. But this points up the difference from the days he seems to harken back to: superheroes, in those days, existed in kiddie books. Nowadays, most books are bought by male adults. Older but (hopefully) wiser, we don't accept true-blue heroics the way we did as children. Superheroes got transplanted into an adult milieu, and that's a point he misses. And since superheroes are inherently pulpy, and modern variations on wish-fulfillment fantasies and myth stories, we shouldn't worry if they're not as prevalent as he'd like...in fact, I worry more about the fact they ARE so successful in film and TV, et al.

Reply

I encourage you all to check out the link posted in Jonathan's comment. It's David Harsanyi's rebuttal in which not even Superman makes the heroic cut -- so I am even more perplexed as to what does.

Reply

Given that David has disabled comments on his blog, I will respond here.

I am pretty thoroughly confused about what David's thesis IS. I neither agree nor disagree, I guess I want to know more.

David writes about the action hereoes of his (and my) day as examples of what now is gone. He notes that today "[o]ur nation seems unable to serve up fictional characters without weighing them down with moral ambiguity and layers of complex emotional baggage." He then cites characters such as John Rambo, Col. Braddock, Martin Riggs and, for today's only example, Jack Bauer as samples of what we are now missing.

David, did we watch the same movies? Or are you now idealizing them a little bit?

Yeah John Rambo become a patriotic killing machine, but in First Blood he was deeply ambiguous morally and was loaded with "emotional baggage". Same can be said of Braddock and Bauer. Riggs....don't even get me started.

None of these characters are as "cut and dried" as you make them out to be. Maybe, instead you want characters who are simply good, as you also note Captain America as an example of what is now missing. I guess I would just echo Elisabeth by citing Superman, Spider-Man and, yes, Leonidas (as portrayed in the film). An even stronger example than Frodo, I think, would be Samwise. He never falters, he's as pure of heart as is possible.

LOTR has a few examples of this. Every member of the Fellowship (SPOILERS Boromir excluded of course) is pure of heart and conviction. David notes in his blog that LOTR was prior to and during WWII. While that point holds, the fact that neither Jackson nor the studios really tried to "complicate" the characters to any great degree seems to counter David's thesis, if I understand it correctly.

Now personally I like a little complexity with my superhero. I guess that's why I've always been a Batman and Iron Man guy. A dark side, whether driven by a desire for vengeance, decadence or even alcoholism. So maybe that's why i "don't get it", but I guess even after reading David's piece and his blog rebuttal, I still "don't get it".

Reply

OK as far as characters without a bad history that's wrong.
Captain America has regret and feels the need to be who he is because he didn't save the scientist that mad ehim super and because Bucky died instead of him(or at least so he thought), Superman does what he does to return the favor to his parents for saving his life by saving every humans life hence he feels regret for not dying just like Captain America.

The best HERO in comics now that they've killed off Cap is Hal Jordan as Green Lantern because he came back even after all the bad things that have happened.

Every hero has that moment in which their life is changed by a moment of sadness (Batman's parents, Iron Man's loss of Captain America and hsi weapons used for murder, Daredevils' dad dying, Hal Jordan losing his father and many many other examples) that makes them feel the need to do good because of all the evil in the world.

I really hope they make a Marvel Civil War movie.

Reply

Some unsorted thoughts

Moral absolutism doesn't make good role models, especially if it's combined with the super hero aproach of solving problems by punching someone in the face.

300 might have been panned but that was an audience reaction. The people making the movie didn't seem to be bothered by such thoughts while doing it.

Superheroes have been around a long time wich means they have to change or repeat themselves. They might as well return to more simple good vs. evil strories in another couple of decades.

When reading the bit aboutz G.I: Joe I couldn't help but think 'Team America Fuck Yeah!'

Reply

What about John McClaine? Does that fit his bill? I would ask him but he like a coward turned comments off his rebuttal.

Reply

I get it. He wants a hero without ambiguity, without baggage, and who is clearly good fighting against evil with no additional subtext. He wants John Cena in The Marine. Check it out. No wait. Don't. In fact I'd almost pay you not to watch John Cena in The Marine (almost, what am I, made of money?).

The problem is that he has this notion of cookie cutter heroes that he has attributed to people that don't even fit the cookie cutter. His only current mainstream hero is Jack Bauer - a man who is morally ambigious when it comes to means and ends, a man who is deeply troubled by his inability to save his wife in the 1st season, former president Palmer in the 5th, and his relationship with his daughter in any season. Let's also not forget his nearly uncontrollable drug abuse in the 3rd season. The reason why the 6th season failed was not because of "moralizing actors who can't differentiate between an escapist action show and reality." It failed because it sucked. The writing was lal over the place, the characters had become stale, and there was nary a plot in sight. That's why the 6th season failed.

Heroes fueled by moral absolutism, without subtext or ambiguity, with their own clear definition of good and evil are more often than not one thing - Villains. Sure they've got some baggage, but we never see them care about their inner demons, just their ends and their willingness to do anything to get the job done.

Reply

Most heroes are flawless, boring creatures (superman, batman, spider-man, x-men, the morons on "Heroes"). There's a chance Tony Stark could be interesting but I'm sure the studios will white-wash him and make his attitude alcoholism tiny stories compared to the gee-whiz toys. As for straight action heros...not since McClain and Riggs have we seen really jacked up guys who aren't angels. In 2007 we did get a nice detective hero in Gone, Baby, Gone. Casey Affleck's character was someone who had heroic traits - integrity, honesty, hard work, right-wrong, and it was his adherence to his values that destroyed his relationship and possibly a little girl's life. That's a great hero! He did the right thing and yet probably did more harm.

Then, again I like all stories with flawed but interesting characters. Hero films rarely offer that.

Reply

Meh. X-Men might have a bunch of complexity and crud, but always comeback to "stop the bad guy" "save the girl" and "make things right"(read: status quo). So, why complain about what your already getting?

Reply

The best heroes are the ones who are flawed, who must overcome great obstacles. It is this need to make things right, to redeem themselves that make them done that cape in the first place. It is the "human" side of heroes and superheros alike that make them three dimensional and interesting. Emotional investment is a big part of my enjoyment in the story. And yes, many times doing the right thing isn't always a happy ending.

At least we all seem to agree, David Harsanyi has it all upside down sideways and backwards. Mr. Harsanyi, consider yourself owned.

Reply

Did anybody else feel like they were reading a poorly written college term paper? I decided not to read the "rebuttal" because I didn't see a thesis in the first "essay".

I would say this guy has a complete lack of knowledge and understanding when it comes to super hero mythos. In fact his pop culture knowledge and understanding of how the movie business is also quite poor. It's like he's seen the movie characters he refers to, but only in the crappy sequels. Rambo 3? Really that's the Rambo you refer to?

The idea of a hero who will succeed at all costs and movies with no moral ambiguity will always be safe as long as Michael Bay keeps making movies.

Reply

Thank God for 2008 and its technology, cuz a 98 Iron Man would've sacked balls. Even a 04 Hulk sacked. 07 Transformers? Only possible cuz it was 07 (or 06 technically).

Regardless, I will be happy when I get to watch The Watchmen back to back with The Authority.

Reply

Superheroes have mostly been supplanted by rappers these days among young kids.
You don't ever hear a kid talk about being spiderman og superman these days.
They rather want to the 50 cent or Eminem, which is very sad i think.
Because at least superheroes represented something good and honest unlike most rappers, who only have their eyes on money and women.

Reply

THE MARINE WAS FUCKING AWFUL and I'm a huge wrestling fan and he's right that was a hero just being a good guy with no back story he just wants his wife back.

What about Riddick I think he belongs with John McClaine as a badass hero unlike any other.

Reply

Cinematical lost my comments from yesterday, dadgummit. Moral relativism is exactly what we need. Else the mutants are inhuman beasts who don't deserve rights. Else Captain America doesn't question what the US government wants from him - as he has twice in comics, each time "quitting" as Captain America. Else Batman decides an eye is the fitting price for an eye and The Joker dies the next time Batman meets him. The comics "hero" who seems to operate with truly absolute morals is The Punisher. Commit a serious enough crime and you die. While his stories are entertaining, does his hard line against crime make him a hero? I think not. We don't need another superhero of the sort Harsanyi seems to desire. We need supermen and superwomen smart enough to find their own morals in a complex world.

Reply