Fan Rant: Women, You Don't Care About Superheroes
Filed under: Fandom, Comic/Superhero/Geek, Fan Rant
I guess I was early to the party when I bemoaned the lack of superheroine movies and Thera Pitts was fashionably on time. Her editorial on Rope of Silicon has set the blogosphere on fire, prompting hundreds of comments on Jezebel alone ... and an incredibly short-sighted rant by Josh Tyler of Cinema Blend.
Guess what ladies? If you went to see Spider-Man or The Dark Knight, it was merely because there wasn't a romantic comedy for you to go see. Girls only like Julia Roberts movies and not "boy things" like superheroes. Tyler writes, "Wishing for more female superhero movies is kind of like longing for more Sex and the City knockoffs with all-male casts. It'll never work and it's not because of sexism or Hollywood bias or whatever rabble rousing labels you want to throw on it. It'll never work simply because men and women have different interests. There's a reason Wonder Woman is the only noteworthy solo female superhero anyone can name. It's because men like superheroes, men wish they could be superheroes, and it's men who see superhero movies and read superhero comic books." So, back to the kitchen and make those comic-book reading boys some pie, ladies. You like girl things, and Wolverine isn't a girl thing at all.
Continued after the jump...
Guess what ladies? If you went to see Spider-Man or The Dark Knight, it was merely because there wasn't a romantic comedy for you to go see. Girls only like Julia Roberts movies and not "boy things" like superheroes. Tyler writes, "Wishing for more female superhero movies is kind of like longing for more Sex and the City knockoffs with all-male casts. It'll never work and it's not because of sexism or Hollywood bias or whatever rabble rousing labels you want to throw on it. It'll never work simply because men and women have different interests. There's a reason Wonder Woman is the only noteworthy solo female superhero anyone can name. It's because men like superheroes, men wish they could be superheroes, and it's men who see superhero movies and read superhero comic books." So, back to the kitchen and make those comic-book reading boys some pie, ladies. You like girl things, and Wolverine isn't a girl thing at all.
Continued after the jump...
Well, you're flat out wrong, Tyler. Browse through the Cinematical comments sometime, or visit Jezebel a few times a week. Whenever I write a Geek Beat, at least half the comments are from women. Every superhero casting announcement prompts dialogue from women. We care just as passionately about superheroes and sci-fi as men do. We have the same investment in the characters, the same dedication to continuity, and collections that could rival any man's. We don't follow this stuff to make dudes like us, or because Hugh Jackman is hot ... surprise surprise, it's because it's fun. The reason the girls probably didn't play Batman on your school's playground was that you didn't ask them, or made fun of them if they did. (Yeah, my childhood traumas are showing -- although in my case, the boys were cool with it, it was the teachers who sniggered that I was a proto-lesbian for liking "boy things.") Male or female, we all want to be superheroes, and we all enjoy a well-made film with larger than life characters. I don't care if it's Indiana Jones or Bruce Wayne, heroism appeals to us all.
Tyler doesn't think so, though, asserting that "catching bad guys is not a common female fantasy" which is probably news to not only women moviegoers, but those who chose to join police departments, the FBI, or even our armed forces. Women, it seems, only join the X-Men, the Rebel Alliance, or become Inspectors because the guys are really hot, not because they're actually interested in chasing down scum and villainy.
It's beyond frustrating to read an opinion like this in 2009. This is precisely the image of women that we've been fighting against for years, and something the writers here on Cinematical have spilled a lot of digital ink on. Choosing to make popular culture into gender culture is outdated, insulting, and the precise reason we get milquetoast versions of Elektra, fewer Ellen Ripleys, and more films of frothy fashion, drippy women, and bland romance.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
1-08-2009 @ 12:19PM
Max Hill said...
Well put. I know plenty of girls who are way more into comics than me, and I consider myself quite the geek. This 'Josh Tyler' needs to get a job and shut up.
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1-08-2009 @ 12:31PM
Clark Parker said...
There is little better in this life then curling up with your wife (who looks smashing in a pair of Superman undies, with a matching T) and watching a string of comic books films together, or depating the finer points of Watchmen, or pouring over every detail of The Dark Knight, knowing full well that she is every bit as as into it as you are... I, for one, am grateful this guy is talking out of his southern hemisphere, I can't imagine a world where my best friend doesn't care if Fox wins it's lawsuit or if Deadpool shows up in full costume, or if Daredevil will ever get a second chance... I can't even explain how cool is was to have her dimiss Sex in the City and ask to go see Hellboy 2 or Iron Man twice.
Wicked point about female law enforcers by the way, Elisabeth... I'd of loved to have seen this cat's face after he read that.
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1-08-2009 @ 1:04PM
Eric D. Snider said...
This is the same Josh Tyler who made the crazy assertion a few weeks ago that any critic who fails to put "The Dark Knight" on his or her top 10 list is obviously out of touch and irrelevant. So apparently Tyler doesn't understand what film critics are (they only have to report their own opinions, not the general public's), or women.
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1-08-2009 @ 1:29PM
Moo said...
Fantastic post. And I agree 100% with Clark regarding your point on female law enforcement/FBI/military personnel. So Tyler thinks that any critic who doesn't include The Dark Knight in their top 10 is out of touch? Based on what I've read so far (which is the last I'll be reading of his work, if I can help it) it sounds to me like he's the one sorely out of touch with today's society.
What. A. Douche.
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1-08-2009 @ 1:40PM
Rachael said...
My absolute favorite part of the source article on this is where he argues that Buffy or Sydney Bristow or even Kim Possible aren't superheroes. It's in the comments section, after a particularly insightful post pointing out the simple fact that Buffy the Vampire Slayer's fanbase is almost entirely made up of women who may find Angel and Spike dreamy, but would prefer the badass empowerment of the lead heroine. I tried to register with the site so I could comment that if Batman or Iron Man count as superheroes, then Buffy and Sydney Bristow most definitely do.
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1-08-2009 @ 2:04PM
ML said...
Buffy isn't a superhero because the show included vampires? She had superpowers; Batman doesn't. I can see excluding Sydney Bristow and Kim Possible, but Buffy Summers? Weird reasoning that.
1-08-2009 @ 3:47PM
Moo said...
indeed, Rachael, I made that point on the fool's blog as well, noting that it was an "epic fail" on his part.
Of course my comment doesn't seem to have made it thru cinema blend's cernsorship....errrrr...review process.
1-08-2009 @ 1:47PM
Kurt said...
Like Clark, I, too, am married to a she-geek, a woman that encourages me to play video games so she can watch, a woman who insisted on (erm, well, went along with at least) midnight screenings of Iron Man and Dark Knight and who is pissed off that they cast Silk Spectre as a sex bomb rather than an aging superhero in the (allegedly) forthcoming Watchmen film. Arguably, most "girly" thing she does is knit, and right now she's knitting herself a hat in the style of Jayne's from Firefly.
So, yeah.
I think ultimately the problem here is that the two most iconic superheroes of all time are male: Batman and Superman. They really outweigh everyone else, even Spider-Man, and they're from sixty-year old franchises that originated in a time and place that WAS dominated by males. It's the same reason that there's no female international spy characters (something that was supposed to be remedied with a potential spin-off of Halle Berry's Jinx character from that god-awful Bond film "Die Another Day").
Indeed, some of the first female superheroes were knock-off sidekicks: Bat-girl and Supergirl (complete with her Super-Horse... really). Wonder Woman is a notable exception. The female hero movies that Thera Pitts mentions were all, to some degree, spun off from male-oriented franchises: DareDevil, Superman, and Batman. You can blame male directors who don't care, but you also have to realize that at a certain point the Hollywood movie factory just starts pumping out genre crap. Elektra, Supergirl, and Catwoman were all horrible movies, but so were DareDevil, Superman III, and Batman Forever.
And I think it's worth considering X-Men as a notable exception; even though its an ensemble piece, it's far more egalitarian than the comic started out. Mystique was the only credible threat amongst the bad guys, Jean Grey was played to type, Rogue was a departure from the comics but one that worked with the story and avoided introducing Marvel Girl, and Storm was... well... okay, Storm came across as bored, but I think we can blame Halle Berry for that, this being her third mention in this post. But if you ask anyone who the whiny bitch of that franchise was, they will all say "Cyclops".
So while I agree that there is a dearth of good female hero-movies, I'd say it has less to do with Hollywood or the audience than it does with source material. But I also agree that we need to see more, so let's get on that Witchblade film, shall we?
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1-08-2009 @ 1:50PM
Elisabeth said...
Kurt, tell your wife she is awesome -- I knit, and I have a mini industry of making Jayne hats for fans! I did four last year and 2 so far this winter...when everyone sees her in it, she's going to get requests, so start cooking up a price. :P
1-12-2009 @ 3:44AM
TheManFromLaramee said...
Couldn't agree more with those who argue that Tyler is the one out of touch with popular culture, but just wanted to make a suggestion for those who bemoan the fact that there are hardly any female 'superspy' characters out there - why don't we all lobby for a big budget big screen version of Peter O'Donnell's classic heroine, Modesty Blaise?
I have read all the Modesty books and feel that as far as empowered female charcters go, she takes the biscuit - not to mention the fact that she's hardcore enough to kick James Bond's butt from here to Timbuktu!!!!
1-12-2009 @ 9:29AM
Kurt said...
I like it. Looks like there's plenty of Hollywood interest there--even Quentin Tarantino has talked about doing a Blaise film.
Could be interesting.
1-08-2009 @ 2:28PM
Kyle said...
".....and military"
Really? Because all the women who I saw during my time in service were there for one of two reasons: to pay for college or to meet them a man.
And I'd characterize most law-enforcement women as the "proto lesbians" that the writer of this article was suggested to be. Let's face it, the frilly, girly, "I'm gonna break a nail" type of girl does not join law enforcement or the military. To see such a girl in those professions is an anomaly.
I'd wager the ratio of women comic fans to men comic fans is largely disproportionate. And the ones who are comic fans, sad to say, are ones I would most likely have no interest in taking to see such a movie.
Are there exceptions? Sure there are. And it's those exceptions that prove 'the rule.'
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1-08-2009 @ 2:42PM
Elisabeth said...
And how many servicemen join the military to pay for college? I know more guys who joined the military for that than out of a Captain America sense of duty. How is it more acceptable for men than women? And by the same token, I wanted to sign up on 9/11 out of a sense of patriotism, but didn't ... I know many of my female classmates felt the same.
Women run the gamut from "girly girls" to crewcut sporting lesbians, with plenty of variations in between -- just like men, shockingly enough. A woman CAN enjoy lip gloss and still want to kick criminal ass as a cop or FBI Agent. My dad is a cop, and for years that was something I very much wanted to do, with an eye to joining the FBI. I'm neither a proto-lesbian (despite what my teachers thought) nor a girly girl, but a well-rounded individual who spends too much money at Sephora, wears New Rocks and high heels, and would have no problem arresting someone. I'm certainly not an anomaly.
To be a successful cop or soldier, it's about having the strength of mind and body to do what needs to be done. Some men have it, others don't. Some women have it, and others don't. It's not a gender thing, it's a personality thing ... and frankly, women may have the edge there if you factor in the "mama bear" syndrome. There's a reason Grendel's Mom is scarier than Grendel in Beowulf -- and interestingly, for being the "Dark Ages," the Anglo-Saxons find it unremarkable if a Queen took it upon herself to destroy forts or fight Vikings. It's only in the enlightened 21st century that only the man-hungry or the proto-lesbians would be interested in defending their homeland.
1-08-2009 @ 2:44PM
Clark Parker said...
What utter nonsense... Your narrowsighted view of female law enforcers aside, for every "frilly" girl you show me, I'll show you an guy who has an equal lack of interest in all things geeky. Fact is, there are lots of people with lots of different tastes and interests but their plumbing has little to nothing to do with it beyond early childhood Pink for girls Blue for boys teaching that we all outgrow or embrace by our own choice.
If I had your thinking, I never would have married the most beautiful and dynamic woman I've ever met and I certainly wouldn't have seen far enough past her lovely bits to discover the human being beneath.
I feel for you, man... I really do.
1-08-2009 @ 3:10PM
Stephanie said...
Wow. Really? I can't even take you seriously with a post like that. Let's face it, your simple-minded comments filled with stereotypes based on what you "know" about women is ignorant at best.
Perhaps your problem is that you are too interested in taking the, as you so eloquently put it, "frilly girly girl" to see movies with you while you avoid girls actually interested in the film. The fact is, not every girl who has interests beyond her wardrobe is a lesbian, nor are they exceptions to the rule. Maybe they're just sensible enough to realize when they're speaking to a sexists douche bag.
In any case, I suggest expanding your horizons.
1-09-2009 @ 2:42AM
Kyle said...
Elizabeth, you admit yourself the fact that you make a perfect example of the point I made.
"And how many servicemen join the military to pay for college? I know more guys who joined the military for that than out of a Captain America sense of duty. How is it more acceptable for men than women? And by the same token, I wanted to sign up on 9/11 out of a sense of patriotism, but didn't ... I know many of my female classmates felt the same."
A) I never said men didn't join for such reasons. And I never said it was more acceptable than for women. But I never met a woman who joined up to be Mrs. Captain America.
B) You said you "wanted to" sign up for Patriotism. I'd guess you changed your mind. You said many of your classmates felt the same. How may "actually" joined?
"Women run the gamut from "girly girls" to crewcut sporting lesbians, with plenty of variations in between -- just like men, shockingly enough."
I'm aware of that. In fact, I think I indicated such. However, the majority of the ones I have seen and met, the girly girls tend 'not' to be the ones who join. And the ones who do, generally do so for the reasons I describe. In fact, we had a running joke about the phenomenon of junior enlisted women running off and marrying marines. It happened quite a bit.
"A woman CAN enjoy lip gloss and still want to kick criminal ass as a cop or FBI Agent. My dad is a cop, and for years that was something I very much wanted to do, with an eye to joining the FBI. I'm neither a proto-lesbian (despite what my teachers thought) nor a girly girl, but a well-rounded individual who spends too much money at Sephora, wears New Rocks and high heels, and would have no problem arresting someone. I'm certainly not an anomaly."
Again, here you say being a cop like your dad was "for years what you wanted to do," yet you did not. I rest my case. You can want and dream all you like, but you didn't do it. You're not the anomaly because in the end, you didn't become a cop or a service member.
You changed your mind. Sexist as though you claim my comments to be, you make the perfect example of what I was talking about.
1-08-2009 @ 11:52PM
Jesse said...
Essentially Elisabeth's argument is that women can like superhero movies and can want to be superheros, and that women are dissatisfied is because female lead superhero movies have sucked.
The women I know, which by the way is a logical fallacy in arguments because personal opinion are not the general opinion, are generally more femme than me. Why? I used to be solely lesbian for 22 years, and just recently moved into bisexual territory. I don't know a single girl who is any more manly than I am, down to recently having my head shaved.
And I know 2. Count them 2. Military service women.
They are both straight, completely uninterested in marriage, and obsessive about skincare.
I am marveling at this thing they call "Exfoliation" still. Now, mind, I wouldn't say these servicewomen know much about comics - I certainly am the comics type, and so is my boyfriend, much to his joy. However, to say that these women must all be dykes (which insults ME as I never ever ever wanted to be a cop and I certainly ate a lot of carpets) and then further if they are not dykes they are not feminine, which just insults practically every pretty girl in uniform or there, is just like...
Man, it's like saying that male cops can't be gay 'cuz that'd imply they're feminine. You're sorta full of shit man. Not gonna lie.
1-09-2009 @ 3:01AM
Elisabeth said...
Wow Kyle, I was not aware you knew me so intimately, and know precisely why I made the personal decisions I did. I mean, wow. You are literally assuming I was too girly, not man-hungry enough, or not lesbian enough to pursue a particular career path.
I made various decisions about my life for reasons that were political, personal, social, and even familial -- and in at least one major way, the decision was made for me, and I am where I am. I don't regret that, because I enjoy working here, but none of that had anything to do with my gender. It's honestly very sad that you would boil an entire life down to that kind of basic "boy vs girl" judgment. There's not much more I can say, really, except that I hope you can widen your horizons a little bit.
1-09-2009 @ 9:06AM
Kyle said...
Elizabeth,
"Wow Kyle, I was not aware you knew me so intimately, and know precisely why I made the personal decisions I did. I mean, wow. You are literally assuming I was too girly, not man-hungry enough, or not lesbian enough to pursue a particular career path. "
One again, I made no such inference into why you made the choices you made. I honestly don't know where you get these logical leaps you make about the points I am making. And then I remember the book titled "men are from mars, women are from venus" and I understand all too well.
I never said anything "why" you chose what you chose, only that you chose it. You can "say" you were filled with patriotism and a desire to kick butt all you like, yet you didn't join, which was my point. Are there a variety of reasons why women join just as there are why men join? Of course there are. Only a fool would claim otherwise. However, I was in for quite sometime and met a variety of people. While it's true, most of the guys I knew joined for "a job," it is also true that most women I knew joined either for college or to "find a man." This point can be examined by the sheer number of junior enlisted women I saw get married and then separate from service.
You can't get mad at my points and you can call me sexist and narrowminded all you like, though I'm not sure why. You seem to be reacting to me like I just called you the c-word or like I just kicked your cat. I've done neither of those, however. I'm not simply making things up, I'm just callin' it like I saw it.
Here are some simple truths for you. Iron Man - Iron Man was not just a 'comic' movie, it was an action movie. So, even guys who weren't "comic geeks" could enjoy it. And by the numbers, I'd say they did. For non-comic geek women to like a super heroine movie, it must be a romantic comedy or something of the like. Think about it. While there *are* women who like comics, they are not the norm. And while there *are* women who would go see Iron Man with their significant others, they probably wouldn't have gone otherwise. The problem with super heroine movies is that, up to now, they've kinda sucked. Catwoman and Elektra is a prime example. I saw neither of these and those I know who did didn't like them. So, because they 'sucked' the comic guys won't see them and even if the "empowered women" do go see them, it will be the comic geek girls going. And the percentage of comic geek girls to girls who hate comics is a staggering percentage. So, you have two problems - 1) Most of the recent super heroine movies have sucked and 2) because of that, only the true, 'hardcore' comic book geek girls went to see them. That shows producers they have a lame duck on their hands. The numbers just aren't there.
1-09-2009 @ 11:10AM
serpahflux said...
I love people who use for their examples "Catwoman" and "Elektra", but gladly choose to omit Kill Bill, or the Underworld franchise, or Resident: Evil, or the Terminator franchise, or the Alien franchise...I guess it's because their point becomes rather moot everytime those are even mentioned...
Also, Kyle, you know why Blade: the Series was canceled by Spike TV: Television for Men. Because Spike Tv: Television for Men noticed that the show was more appealing to a female fanbase, and boy, they couldn't have that. They are after all Spike TV: Television for Men...
For the record: regardless of the genre, the vast majority of serviceman of this country, men and women, joined for two reasons: 1) a Job, 2) College.
To imply that men join for patriotism, and women to find a man (I'm pretty sure joining the local gym would be easier, in that regard), is pretty delusional, and, yes, more than a little bit sexist.