Girls on Film: Men Writing Women

Good call on those two flicks, Chad. Great movies, the both of them. Julie Delpy was also credited as a writer on Before Sunset, so it's fair to say both movies had a lot of female input. How much of the dialogue was improvised is anyone's guess, though.

I'd also mention Joss Whedon. Whether you see it as a crutch or not, he writes almost exclusively strong female parts in action-oriented roles. When you look at a movie like Transformers, it becomes pretty clear how different Joss's approach is, even though Buffy was over 10 years ago.

Krizan and Delpy's input are why they weren't mentioned in this post. :)

So Linklater wrote most of Celine the first time around, but as the second was written with Hawke and Delpy, I wonder how that played out -- all hands in the pot, or just in their own characters.

As much as I love Sunset, I always feel a bit iffy using it in conversations about women because I wasn't a big fan of "manic depressive" - as Jesse called it - aspects of Celene.

Stanley -- Love Joss as well, but I would like to see him write some strong female leads without superpowers -- the same spunk without the power.

Funny to me how things get distorted through the all the marketing and commentary tracks and stuff over the years. Rick writing the female parts and Kim writing the male parts, make a good story for the press, but it isn't true.

I was there and read the multiple drafts. Rick liked Kim's graduate thesis and wanted to write a boy/girl romance. Kim thought it would be cool to put it on a train, though they originally were going to have the first film based in San Antonio.

Kim and Rick wrote the script together... and really if you have read the other films Rick has written by himself, you'll know just how much Kim contributed. There is just no way that Rick could write a female part by himself this good. And there is a reason you have never seen him do another female character this well outside these two movies. And, if you ever met Kim, you'd know that both films are infused with her innate character and spirit. They are really more her films than anything else....

Then I guess the story of "The idea for the movie came from a night Richard Linklater spent walking around Philadelphia with Amy, a woman he met" is also hogwash, since Kim was apparently the mastermind.

I trust Linklater, who has done numerous films, to Kim's one.

FWIW Rick's real genius lies in corralling a bunch of different voices on different projects and adding them to a creative stew to make his films. With Slacker, everyone is improvising stuff, writing their own lines. With Waking Life, the same thing. He pulls Kim in for the Before Sunset movies. He's a very collaborative guy — and I think a case can be made for Rick being the Mike Leigh of the U.S.... except Mike Leigh is really honest about his collaborations with actors, and Rick, out of a real character flaw, has to take credit for writing all of Slacker and Waking Life, and the female parts on Before Sunset — which if you knew the guy and his relations with women you'd find laughable! I've always found it sad that a guy who is as incredibly talented as Rick has to go overboard in taking credit from other people — when his accomplishments would stand on their own two feet. That's his tragic flaw as an artist.

Do you think that's because of how female characters are written at all?

I find myself either picking and choosing aspects to relate to (like loving the professional emphasis on Sex and the City and hating the fashion), or just ignoring many female characters altogether.

Stephenie could use a boost, but while I find a lot of Cody's dialog to be over-the-top, strip that away and a lot is pretty realistic and down to earth.

I think it's important to note that differences between men and women are, in no way, a binary. And while some stereotypes might ring true for some people -- they are in no way indicative of a sex or gender of people.

As for your comments on women writing men -- all in good time! Since space doesn't permit a long discussion about scriptwriting on both sides of the fence, this is focused solely on men writing women. Sometime in the future, I'll discuss the opposite, but keep in mind that it IS a very shallow pool to pick from.

I think the most obvious difference is having an audience of the people you're writing about.

I wonder how a historical drama would hold up if zipped back in a time machine and shown to people of that time.

The historical drama wasn't written for that audience in the past, but it should ring true for those in the present who know their history (and those who don't) -- good writers reach their audience, too.

My point is that I don't see gender as an inherently different problem from the general challenges facing the writer. A "feminine side," a good student of human nature, a knack for genuine sympathy, a good perspective on one's own experiences in relationships with others, reading a lot and asking a lot of questions, all of these things can contribute to a writer's ability to create compelling and relatable characters and stories. Experience is good, but it's not the only thing, and it's not a binary "either you have it because of the parts in your pants or you don't" thing either.

Now, being male, perhaps you don't believe I can even answer the question "can men write women" -- but my answer is Yes anyway.

Why would I not believe you can answer the question? That's the whole point .. discussion! :)